Sean Doyle
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Sean Doyle

Sean is a principal at FitzMartin, and our leading mind and voice on sales and marketing strategy. Sean is particularly adept at applying the science of behavior change to the art of sales and marketing.


Luke Allen: I know I’m gonna get this deal. You just know this order is coming in and then it just goes quiet. Your boss is asking you an update on this pipeline deal and you don’t have one and you’re just you’re just freaking out.

Sean Doyle: We’re continuing our conversation with Luke Allen of OHD. He is the SVP of Sales and today is our guest on Aligned. Aligned is the podcast for executives of middle market companies seeking to improve sales and marketing ROI. I’m Sean Doyle your host for today’s episode. Let’s get to our conversation with Luke.

Van: Rolling. Action, action.

Sean Doyle: Luke thanks for being willing to stay a little bit and continue the conversation.

Luke Allen: Yeah, absolutely.

Sean Doyle: Let’s recap of where we were. We had established your expertise as the SVP of Sales of an international organization. Been doing this, sales, your whole life and as a millennial, a young guy albeit some gray hair—

Luke Allen: Yeah, we covered that last time.

Sean Doyle: I’m the old fart marketer, right?

Luke Allen: Yeah.

Sean Doyle: Boomer. Now admittedly I was born in ‘64 so that’s like the last year. You know, I’m a very young Boomer. Just this for clarification. And we were having a discussion about not only sales and marketing but specifically late stage deals. And one of my favorite parts of the conversation was when you were talking about something a Boomer would like, right? The handwritten note.

Luke Allen: Right.

Sean Doyle: And after our session the producer shared his story. So we’ve had a jump on.

Van: Wow, usually you guys just keep me in the basement and throw meat downstairs. It’s truly an honor to be here.

Sean Doyle: Well look at the sunlight and enjoy it.

Van: Ahh, I do need vitamin D.

Sean Doyle: Tell us your story. It was great

Van: Well last week, the last episode, when you guys discussed that I’m a producer. I’m an engineer and a voice actor as well. We work with voice actors all across the United States and one that we have that I am now after years of working together, we’d become fast friends. And she’s just an amazing voice actor named Kelly Butrick and she the way she got into our business was she sought us out using a handwritten letter, a box of goodies, a follow up email, and a phone call. And she has made, I don’t need to discuss how much money she has made for our business, but it is a considerable amount that would get you a nice lake house somewhere I do believe. Just in everything that you’re talking about with being relational and being purposeful about making this relationships and remembering small details about so-and-so really loves that team or they like dark chocolate. Those are those things that shock the, I really think that these days it shocks the client because they don’t expect it. No one expects anything other than junk mail. And when you get the handwritten letter makes you happy.

Sean Doyle: A handwritten letter can still be junk mail if it’s not sincere. You know, if you didn’t take the time to listen, you know, and or it can be really sales-y. If I prodded you till I knew you’re a football fan and then I asked you about why, you know, what or who then that could be a little insincere. I don’t know. I love handwritten notes, I do. They still have to be done well. What would you say worked with a note that you got Van?

Van: Well I’ll tell you there is one behind the wall, or behind me. Let me grab it real quick.

Van: So this is from a voice actor who again sought us out online and she’d sent me an e-mail and then just sent me a nice handwritten postcard that on the front says Rachel Porter VO, youthful, fresh, intuitive. And then on the back says, “Happy spring. Hello from K.C. I hope business is going well. We have the partnership together . . . ” I can’t really read her handwriting that much . . . Some projects this year, best Rachel. Just a nice friendly, you know, happy spring. I think I’d mentioned it was pollen season but it was just a very, it was a timely touch. Yeah it meant a lot to me. Let’s see what the date is March of 2019. That it’s been hanging up on my wall. And she’ll get future work.

Sean Doyle: I thought it was a fun story of a postcard that became worth millions. Well, I can’t vouch that it was millions but—

Luke Allen: Sounds good.

Van: Real good.

Sean Doyle: Today what I’d love to, go back to the basement Van.

Van: Thank you. Thank you. Going back down there.

Sean Doyle: Today I would love to visit more about these late stage prospects and late stage techniques that sales.. I’d hate to call them techniques. It makes it sound so clinical and like you’re doing something to somebody. It’s not a technique. They’ve got to be done sincerely. In fact one thing if you go to Luke’s LinkedIn quotes one thing that talks about is your sincerity and that you have client first.

Luke Allen: Well thanks.

Sean Doyle: And prospects figure out fast if you’re selling for your purposes or for their purposes. All that said, let’s get rid of the word technique. My bad.

Luke Allen: Yeah.

Sean Doyle: We had talked something about what we call in cognitive marketing the conversion from preparation, which is typically when marketing has handed sales a lead in the beginning. Somebody has indicated some way that they’re interested and begin to prepare themselves for a change, that might be buying a new product or a new service. And moving them over into action, so action is this late stage moment where you’re looking for budgets. The resources are assigned. The problem is there. It’s clear there is ownership of this problem with the person you’re talking to and they’re asking you, even literally, give me a proposal. Like I want to know what this is going to cost but also behavioral science tells us, and this is a big mistake I see in sales, maybe we’ll side trail for this a little bit, is what something cost is not just money. It’s time, right? It’s operational. You’ve mentioned at the very end of our last segment that there was a technical salesperson, somebody coming in to help with all those details. Do you do you split apart that question when someone says yeah I want a proposal? Do you cognizantly put out to two sections – here’s the money and here’s all the cost of change.

Luke Allen: Well I think if you have a product or a service or solution that has that benefit then yes, it’s important to lay those out. So for us specifically our technology is new, so it brings some new advancements and so some of those are are monetarily. You know, we need a quote. How much is it going to cost in real dollars, right? But then you also have the side of well how much money will it save us in time savings? Or will we have time to allocate to other things? Or you know however that lays out so absolutely it’s important to document those and put them where they’re not all lumped together. For us, we separate those very clearly so we have a cost of the instrument and how that compares to competitors. But then we very clearly lay out what the ongoing costs of owning it, operating it, maintaining it and then what is the savings in time and efforts. How does that look. So again, I think that’s important to know the customer and for us, some people don’t care about the time savings as much as they do the initial investment. Some people care less about the initial investment and more about what’s it going to save me over 10 years, so technical sales and marketing has to be fluid and move into those spaces the right way.

Sean Doyle: That’s great. I think one thing that we’ve seen, we’ve built something called a marketing technology maturity index. It’s a great name. I should get an advertiser to help me with that.

Luke Allen: Yeah, say that three times fast.

Sean Doyle: The idea of the index is when we’re helping somebody install or implement some sort of marketing technology, we need to understand where they are in the process. Are they ready for really sophisticated insights? A.I.? Or do they need a good CRM system? Something really basic that talks. So in that journey one thing we’ve learned is that to make a recommendation about technology in marketing and sales you have to, you have to, talk about all the cost of change that’s beyond the product, right? The price of the object I think is what you just said.

Luke Allen: That’s right.

Sean Doyle: Well something like that. So we are currently in a conversation. Salesman got into our client, not our salesman. Some other salesman got into our client and convinced them that this piece of marketing technology would be a great fit. They loved how it integrated with the product. It made so much sense. It presented well so a client called us and said hey we need to switch our marketing technology from a to b. And we said well let’s talk about that a little bit. And so by the time we took what their software tech cost and we did the conversion and we did the integration and we did the additional cost because we can do, in the technology he’s in now, we can do something in an hour that in this other technology might take two to three.

Luke Allen: Oh wow.

Sean Doyle: So you start looking at all those costs the cost of change, the soft cost you might call them, that that really matters. So we talked in our last episode about when you’ve got those early late stage prospects. People are moving and the tools that marketing can help sales with emotional tools, rational tools, and then this idea of creating tools like that private than public commitments. Ways that sales can make that transition, for example things like pilot projects or iPad calculators or some sort of exchange modeling. Now that we’re in this late, late stage two things I think . . . I’m not trying to set you up for a or b here.

Luke Allen: Okay, good.

Sean Doyle: But the sales gets heightened right? The stress is heightened. So I’m a salesman. Anybody that messes up my deal, that’s cash right. I’m losing cash now.

Luke Allen: Yeah.

Sean Doyle: So marketers have to understand when they wonder why our delightful ideas aren’t accepted, they’re not playing with your paycheck but you’re playing with their paycheck. How do you tell a marketer to approach that salesperson who does have good ideas who does have good ways to help.

Luke Allen: Yeah I think again going back to last episode, the alignment side has to be there. So you have to have teams that work together which is a culture thing that’s pivotal and key to success there. So you have to have that alignment where a salesperson trusts a marketing person that’s bringing ideas even if they don’t agree with those or go with all of them. There’s got to be that open discussion on how both people can come together and bring the positive result. But you’re right about the salesperson is so focused at the end of this buying piece they’ve you know for us it’s 12 to 18 month buying cycle. They’re hungry, they’re very focused on closing this deal. Anything that’s a threat to that is is going to be seen as that.

Sean Doyle: Inside or out.

Luke Allen: Inside or out, yeah. And like a lot of things with your family at home, sometimes it’s easier to be harder on things that are inside than out, you know, so if it’s a marketing person in your company you’re quick to tell them, “Hey, I got it.”

Sean Doyle: Yeah, I got it.

Luke Allen: This is what I do. You know you stay in your lane let me stay in my lane and that also, Sean, to me another mistake that sales people make is they when they feel that pressure they almost overcompensate for follow up on the deal or on the buyer or on the person because they feel that pressure. And some people can take that and that leads them to too much follow up, too many calls, too many emails, too many touch points. And that’s something we found in our business that when you have again aggressive sales culture, you have to dial that back at certain parts of the process or you’re gonna run people off or you’re going to make them angry. All these different things that we’ve all felt when we try to buy a product, you know, good salespeople have to know when to step that back as well.

Sean Doyle: Yeah I was taught that when, as a salesman I was taught that when somebody asks you for a proposal every second that passes from that moment is against you. So that would lead me to be hyper aggressive.

Luke Allen: You hear time kills it kills deals. And that’s the thing that everybody, yeah. So you feel that pressure.

Sean Doyle: What’s the balance? I mean obviously you could keep track of things and you could see when you lose deals and get deals. There’s some amazing technology coming out of Israel right now that uses AI to listen to words and looks at time cadences and identifies what the most successful paths are. So there’s the future of A.I. is going to impact this dialogue, intuitively

Luke Allen: Yeah I mean, to me, I think really some of it goes back to the relationship part that we talked about earlier which we let off with with the note piece that people you know might or might not really agree with, but you know I say give it give something like that a try and see how that that works. But to me the only way you really stay close at that late stage by without feeling the pressure of constantly needing an update, you know, when you’re you’re just flipping out about. I haven’t heard from Sean in a day. You know, and people are telling you you know outside looking in they’re saying that you’re overreacting. If you have that relationship you really can get those updates from the buyer or from the person inside and really the best salespeople create relationships to where the buyer really feels like they’re buying a solution and a product but they’re buying it from somebody they really like and they really want to work with. And that makes the overall experience again even better than what most people are experiencing today when they buy a product online or through a retailer. You know Amazon has a great business but let’s be honest, it’s a very distant relationship. So if you can create that in a technical market or in your place of business wherever it is, the banking world you mentioned that earlier, that that relationship will be a huge difference when you come to these late stages where it gets quiet and it gets delayed and people don’t like that. They don’t like quiet.

Sean Doyle: Luke I’m laughing because I remember a story you told me once about you as a younger salesperson who called and called and called. Do you recall the story? Will you tell it?

Luke Allen: Yeah well I was a young salesperson and I was the hungry person you mentioned earlier and you know I have a I know I’m gonna get this deal you know and everybody that’s probably listening to this podcast if you’re marketing or sales in any way you’re you can relate to this you just know this order is coming in and then it just it just goes quiet and you’re you know your boss is asking you an update on this pipeline deal and you don’t have one and you’re just you’re just freaking out and so I resorted to what most young salespeople do. I just call everyday, you know. And email, and then I text, and I’m calling and texting and emailing and finally I get someone on the phone, you know, days later and they say oh no you know so-and-so has as unfortunately passed away and you know you’re standing there, you know. I’m so sorry for your loss you know and yes it’s me that’s left 57 voicemails. It’s really not that important in the big scheme of things of what we’re talking about now. But I think that’s part of it too of just understanding that piece of the close is you have to be close enough but you can’t overdo it.

Sean Doyle: Sometimes stuff just happens.

Luke Allen: Yeah sometimes things happen.

Sean Doyle: And something that was a priority, a genuine priority, moves to not so much of a priority but comes back.

Luke Allen: Absolutely, I mean we ended up, you know, we just they were looking for this person’s replacement which you would understand. You know, it’s not an easy fill right when someone has that go on and eventually went through but that silence can be devastating for salespeople.

Sean Doyle: Oh absolutely. What a great story I mean difficult, touchy, but great story.

Luke Allen: Yeah true story.

Sean Doyle: Truth is stranger than fiction right, right? When we’re working with sales and the way that we create a dialogue with sales about how to support a sales individual’s late stage efforts we focus on four aspects that are revealed through this cognitive marketing, the behavioral science. And the four are simply, helping relationships, positive substitution and countering, environmental controls, and rewards for positive behavior. So in environmental control is such an easy thing. So you think about why do I take a prospect to go play golf? I take him because I’ve got four hours with him. Right. Or more or less depends how good you play right. Or you know you see people who have a box at a football stadium where they get them they get their attention. And once the behavioral science teaches us that if you can get somebody out of their environment then they’re more likely to make a change. It’s the think of some bad habit you’ve got don’t name it. Hold on hold it. If your environment doesn’t change then nothing changes as it’s unlikely. So if you’re trying to help somebody not drink beer don’t take him to a bar, right? So inversely if I want someone to make a behavioral change then I might take him to a plant tour. I might bring them to my facility. I might take them off site to a third party. And they’re not techniques right there. They’re really genuinely helpful because it allows change to happen and allows people to understand and to have an aha moment. We love aha moments.

Luke Allen: Sure. So these are steps that you’re saying marketing support sales in, right?

Sean Doyle: Exactly. And that’s the kind of thing marketing can come to a salesman and say I’m not going to mess up your deal. I’m gonna design an environmental control and I’m going to design and experience at your office so that you can walk in and go huh. This is different. I didn’t expect this. I didn’t know this. I learned that. Disney teaches a lot about how to do that. How do you change people’s feelings, their perspectives, from everything from the way the materials their feet are touching walking or elevation changes and sound. And so those are ways that a marketer can have a lot of power. And I bet you’ve heard a salesman say, “If we can get them to our office we close 90 percent of them.” Well that’s an environmental control.. Sometimes you can’t get a client to your office. Marketing can build an environmental control that a salesperson can take out. You can take in fact we even love, it’s old fashioned kind of like handwritten. We like things called environmental surrounds and we would build a system of printed boards that go on easels. So if I’m sitting in my conference room and I’m listening to your pitch every time a board goes up it changes visually what I see. We might have them have music playing which is super easy with a bluetooth speaker now. We might have them have some food in there which changes the smell from what they normally smell. So you’re sitting there as a prospect in your own turf but you’re surrounded by the salesman’s boards. You’re smelling the smells hearing the sounds and watching video and you. It changes that environment. Those are really powerful tools. Another one is this reward for positive behavior. And I know this is a time honored challenge. You’ve had some sales guy come up to you and say, “Hey Luke I want to do X Y Z or I want to take them out” or worse, you’ve got an expense receipt and said I already already did that. Rewards do work for positive behavior just like raising a child right. How do you define that? How do you construct those rewards? So you know you’re your team knows what to do. They know how to not go too far.

Luke Allen: Yeah. With customers, you’re saying. Or potential prospects. I mean, yeah, for us everybody’s business is different obviously and how that works. But I’ve been trying to get a box at the local college football team but the company won’t go for it. But yeah for us we don’t have as many customers that can come here, you know, so other businesses have different ways to do what you just described. For us, marketing is supported creating this environmental control and some of the feeling our culture and our company remotely is through great video, through a great telling the story of the company, the culture, who we are, why we do what we do, in a format that salespeople can use it and utilize it. And you know from our experience as salespeople most of our technical sales people are really good at what they do when it comes to selling and all those things but the detail behind, you know, you mentioned Disney earlier one of the things I love about Disney is their attention to detail is just at a whole nother level. And most salespeople, you look at my desk or wherever else, the attention to detail is not my gifting package, you know. Whereas marketing they normally are really looking at how does our brand look and what feel does this have. And again, the alignment with sales, if you have good marketing and sales alignment, that end stage where marketing can wrap in and bring that closing touch to really have the customer make that emotional connection and the buy in is a major win. And for us taking customers to dinner, doing things like that, we are for that but I think the customized piece of the video and the different experiences has been a big advantage.

Sean Doyle: Another behavioral science driven process that we see and use, in fact I’ve even got kind of a fun story to share, is this positive substitution encountering. So we’ve all made that presentation. We’ve put our best foot forward with amazing, everything was great, the graphics were perfect, the numbers were good. The ROI was there for everybody, both sides. You know, it was just that you’re going, Oh this is it. And then you hear something like, well we’ve asked five other companies to come in and you’re, oh my. I didn’t know that. Or since we met with you last we decided to handle this in house. Right. So yeah those are moments where you can design a positive substitution. So what do I mean by that. We were working once with a manufacturer of a motorcycle. Well we weren’t working with them they were a prospect and they said that very thing about we’re going to talk to eight other companies and see how they’d approach it which you know roll your eyes on the inside of course. But because marketing had prepared me for this I was able to say we’ll I’ll tell you what, let’s let’s do this. It’s going to cost me about twenty thousand dollars to do the first steps to build the numbers, to do what you want me to do. What if I just allow you access to my company and we’ll go through the first step of being a new client. At the end of that, I will have not spent a dollar more than going through your RFP process and you’ll have a real sense of what it’s like to work with us and you’ll even get a sense of our strategy and our insights. Worst case scenario I haven’t spent money that I wasn’t already going to spend on RFP. And you’ve gotten some results. You’ve gotten some strategy, some plans, some direction. And the CEO scratched his head and you said I could see he was thinking about all the other people he was going to have to call back and say, hey, I changed my mind. Yeah. So God just gave it to me. So I said, what if you call the other groups and say the decision making process has been delayed by eight weeks. And he said I can do that. So we did it, and we ended up launching the brand of this motorcycle.

Luke Allen: Oh wow.

Sean Doyle: And it was great. It was all because marketing it equipped me with a substitution. Something to offer. So I knew ahead of time, as a salesman, I could offer X, Y, and Z. So I love seeing companies that have playbooks, that the sales team knows what their boundaries are. And without having to say, let me call Luke.

Luke Allen: Yeah, exactly.

Sean Doyle: Which is the old car dealer track, right? That’s designed to remove control from people. That’s a separate technique and it might be worth talking about that. And that is a technique. But the last the last of these four very powerful processes is helping relationships. And I know that you’ve got this culture of helping and bringing in people what they need bringing to people what they need. My question is how do you allow a helping relationship but you don’t give away the product. How do you allow a helping relationship without increasing your cost of sales to such a point that the ROI is not there?

Luke Allen: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think the main thing that we do is that we have a product that justifies and really demands that the price point that it has. So the relationship is outside of that, you know. So again, if the value and the message and the benefit is for the person and the customer of the company that is buying this product or service or solution, you can have those things both go together. So you can have the relationship that you build along with profitable product sales or service sales. And I do think that that is something that salespeople can struggle with on the reverse side. So if they create this great relationship with someone they almost feel they’re obligated, or they want to throw in, you know, you mentioned a discount or given away things, or whatever. To me, if you fairly built a product or service or solution at a fair price, you know, you’re able to deliver that with a good conscience in your relationships that you have where the deliverable is is there for both companies and the end user. So that’s normally the way that we really get our salespeople to understand what that benefit is, so they they’re not just artificially saying that. They really believe it.

Sean Doyle: Do you ever have to tell a salesperson look, you’ve got 50 hours in this gig and you just gotta let it go?

Luke Allen: Oh yeah. I think everybody’s got either one of those or many of those, right? Where they hang on and hang on and hang on.

Sean Doyle: What do you do? How do you know where the line is? Is it intuition?

Luke Allen: Yeah, I think so. Some of it’s intuition and some of it’s the lead indicators that you’re looking at. You know, what are the activities and what are the buying habits? But some of it, too, is just that ROI time on what we’ve invested and where things are. But yeah, some of it’s not really a straightforward science though. You never really know.

Sean Doyle: I feel like there was a story that we wanted to tell but I can’t remember what it was but while I’m thinking about that story, and it may never come back, that’s the problem being a boomer. You millennials would remember. I was thinking about something you said earlier and that was about culture. So when we talk about marketing and sales alignment I always lead with we’ve got to create a common dialogue and a common language between marketing and sales because, you know, you’ve read a million things. There’s the consumer decision journey, coined largely by McKinsey, that defined this idea of the steps in the processes. Then you get into the behavioral science like we’ve applied it and then you get into these arrows in your quiver. These nine processes and how to use them. Well that’s great if marketing knows all that but if sales has a different pipeline, and there may be a logical, I’ve seen a lot of different pipelines. I’ve seen pipelines with 70 steps. Highly engineered. Too many steps. But ,you know, sales is talking about one thing. Marketing is talking about another thing. We’ve got to have this common language. So that may be a fairly obvious thing to do as a first step, is identify what we’re going to call things and all agree on it. You then said something about culture and language, it connected with me, you can’t have a culture without a language, right? So maybe I’ve just got this infinitesimal understanding of culture and how to create these. Tell me a little bit more about what you’re thinking.

Luke Allen: Yeah. And I’m sure we could probably do a whole podcast on culture—

Sean Doyle: Oh we could string people along forever.

Luke Allen: Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, that’s a buzzword right now. And I’m sure there’s a thousand podcasts that are talking about it. Culture to me is the most important ingredient in this overall recipe. To me it drives results, it drives language, it drives commitment and alignment. If you don’t hire to culture, train to culture, you’re not going to retain the right talent. You’re not going to attract the right talent in whatever role that you’re looking at. And for us, we get these sales and marketing alignment because the culture of what we’ve developed has built the language to where our marketing person is so bought in on their role and they really celebrate the success of the salesperson and the outcome of closing deals and they’re intimately involved in tracking that. So they see their fingerprint on the deal all the way through and then the salesperson sees the reverse of that. They are in support of what we’re doing from a marketing standpoint, whether it’s outside agencies or internal marketing because the salesperson intimately knows how that’s going to impact their job their income stream and so on and so forth. And to me that that open culture and bringing in the right people builds out the successful buy-in from all the different parts. So it’s an important process and nobody falls in to the right culture. It’s something you literally have to intentionally develop and everyone has a culture. It’s just most people don’t have the culture they really want. Or they tell their friends at the golf course about, or at their business group when everyone says well, how is your company culture? Most people say it’s great. You know, everything’s good and people love to work here. But if you did a culture survey with their people, you’d probably find out a little something different. But it is an important thing and I think it gets overhyped that millennials have more importance in culture, I think it’s been there forever. I just think it manifests itself in a different way with people in my generation or younger in that with the job market that we’re in now and some of the dynamics, people are moving. They’re moving to different companies and they know what different companies offer. Information is so widely available that it means you need to focus on that and if you’re not, you’re going to be at a disadvantage against competitors or in your market. But even outside of your market with the way people can use their job skills in different ways. So for us that’s the building block of culture and it makes these initiatives easier because you had people bought in.

Sean Doyle: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you would actually enjoy knowing this. Maybe you do know it, but you invest in our company with a role called sales enablement. So we’re providing that communication link between marketing and sales and supporting your marketing director. The sales enablement guy at my office celebrates when you all get deals too. We actually hear about it. I mean he’ll bring it up. We have a formal time weekly to share good news from clients but occasionally you’ll just hear, they got another couple deals. I mean so that culture is infectious outside your walls and that’s great. So yeah, that’s a whole other conversation. We’ll dive into that someday.

Sean Doyle: You know I think after listening to you and knowing some of my intent, I hope that people, and I’ll ask you this same question, I hope that people walk away with this knowing that late stage marketing should be involved. It may not have been involved in the past. And if it’s not, it’s because you don’t have an understanding of how or your marketer doesn’t have an understanding of how to participate. Or maybe sales hasn’t trusted marketing to be involved and maybe they haven’t earned the trust either. Earning trust as part of a culture, right?

Luke Allen: Right, it is.

Sean Doyle: So we shared a few of the processes that we teach and help our clients with. I hope that helps a little bit to at least give an inkling, a little tiny understanding, of what you could do with marketing to support large stage sales. I think that’s been an interesting part of the conversation. What do you hope people got out of this?

Luke Allen: To me, this has been something that I think really the benefit of what we’ve talked about these first two episodes are really applicable from executives down. Through sales and marketing and understanding how those worked together. We’re all in for the same outcome or we should be. So we’ve got to find that alignment, so my hope would be that people take out of this that there is a way to have that alignment which is probably something that people thought might not even be possible. And if they don’t have it within their companies, hopefully we gave some examples of how to start that process, how to find people that can help guide that. So hopefully that’s what people got out of some of this time.

Sean Doyle: Thank you for your time.

Luke Allen: Yeah. Thank you Sean, I enjoyed it.

Sean Doyle: Being the aged man that I am, I think I’m gonna wrap it up for the day.

Luke Allen: Yeah, I’m surprised you haven’t gone to bed yet.

Sean Doyle: Join us on the next episode when we talk with Anna Svarney and Will Riley about sales enablement on Aligned, the podcast.

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